32 thoughts on “Via Kristin Moran​

  1. I am going to repeat what I said a few days ago on this comic.
    It is wrong.
    Fascism was staunchly anti-religion, anti-corporate power, and pro-union.
    ‘Fascism’ != ‘stuff you don’t like’.

  2. < ![CDATA[I am going to repeat what I said a few days ago on this comic. It is wrong. Fascism was staunchly anti-religion, anti-corporate power, and pro-union. 'Fascism' != 'stuff you don't like'.]]>

  3. Italian Fascism stated that ‘religion is a mental illness’ and tried to push the Pope out of the Vatican. National Socialism said much the same and killed thousands of priests, monks, and nuns in the concentration camps.
    Both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy required membership in unions/syndicates (depending), confiscated ‘war profits’, opposed standard banking/made it illegal, set profit caps for corporations, all while creating a broad social welfare net for working class families.
    The official party platforms and actions of both Italian Fascists and national Socialists was anti-religion, anti-corporate, and pro-union.
    I think my favorite part of the comic, however, is panel #20. Germany had a national health care plan and the Nazi Party ran on a platform of strengthening and expanding it as a right all Germans enjoyed – and they did.

  4. < ![CDATA[Italian Fascism stated that 'religion is a mental illness' and tried to push the Pope out of the Vatican. National Socialism said much the same and killed thousands of priests, monks, and nuns in the concentration camps. Both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy required membership in unions/syndicates (depending), confiscated 'war profits', opposed standard banking/made it illegal, set profit caps for corporations, all while creating a broad social welfare net for working class families. The official party platforms and actions of both Italian Fascists and national Socialists was anti-religion, anti-corporate, and pro-union. I think my favorite part of the comic, however, is panel #20. Germany had a national health care plan and the Nazi Party ran on a platform of strengthening and expanding it as a right all Germans enjoyed – and they did.]]>

  5. What Mussolini said before he came to power was VERY DIFFERENT from he did one he became the “duce”. So much that other fascists accused him of “having betrayed their ideals”.
    It’s true that he was, at a time, very anticlerical (he famously dared God to prove his existence by killing him on the spot), but once he got the power, he did sign the first “concordato”, the first agreement between the Italian state and the church, that made catholic church the “State Religion” , taught in the public school during school hours and with a very, very large annual donation of money from the state to the Church. All this to get the Church approval to the new regime (he did get it). The Church was already favorable to his regime because he was seen as a way to dispose of socialists and free-thinkers.
    The fascist regime was tied very tightly to the catholic church, the church-and-state stranglehold on free thinking was supported by both.
    You can’t really judge Fascism, as a for of government, from what Mussolini wrote before taking the power. He was a very ambitious liar, lying to his followers up to the end. (he was socialist and pacifist up to the time he saw an advantage into switching sides too, and after only a few years he was behind the mass killings of socialists and pacifists…)

  6. < ![CDATA[What Mussolini said before he came to power was VERY DIFFERENT from he did one he became the "duce". So much that other fascists accused him of "having betrayed their ideals". It's true that he was, at a time, very anticlerical (he famously dared God to prove his existence by killing him on the spot), but once he got the power, he did sign the first "concordato", the first agreement between the Italian state and the church, that made catholic church the "State Religion" , taught in the public school during school hours and with a very, very large annual donation of money from the state to the Church. All this to get the Church approval to the new regime (he did get it). The Church was already favorable to his regime because he was seen as a way to dispose of socialists and free-thinkers. The fascist regime was tied very tightly to the catholic church, the church-and-state stranglehold on free thinking was supported by both. You can't really judge Fascism, as a for of government, from what Mussolini wrote before taking the power. He was a very ambitious liar, lying to his followers up to the end. (he was socialist and pacifist up to the time he saw an advantage into switching sides too, and after only a few years he was behind the mass killings of socialists and pacifists...)]]>

  7. About fascism and the unions, their relationship is very simple: fascists burned down the union houses and hunted and killed union members. When the unions declared worker’s strikes, fascists went to work in the worker’s place making the strikes fail. When the fascist took the power, unions were declared illegals and closed, apart from the fascist one that was a union only by name. And going on strike was forbidden, you could go to prison for that.
    Very pro-unions, right?
    This was one of the reason the Church did love fascists, even before they become the government.
    For a cronology, look here (it’s in Italiam, sorry)
    it.wikipedia.org – Cronologia della violenza politica in Italia 1919-1924 – Wikipedia

  8. < ![CDATA[About fascism and the unions, their relationship is very simple: fascists burned down the union houses and hunted and killed union members. When the unions declared worker's strikes, fascists went to work in the worker's place making the strikes fail. When the fascist took the power, unions were declared illegals and closed, apart from the fascist one that was a union only by name. And going on strike was forbidden, you could go to prison for that. Very pro-unions, right? This was one of the reason the Church did love fascists, even before they become the government. For a cronology, look here (it's in Italiam, sorry) it.wikipedia.org – Cronologia della violenza politica in Italia 1919-1924 – Wikipedia]]>

  9. Moreno R. “The fascist regime was tied very tightly to the catholic church, the church-and-state stranglehold on free thinking was supported by both.”
    Is that why the Fascists tried to dismantle Catholic Action in 1931 which led to a stand-off between Mussolini and the Vatican with international pressure backing the Pope? When the Pope stated that Mussolini’s laws “unmasked the pagan underpinnings of Fascism” in the 1930’s was this a sign of their close ties?
    The fact remains – Fascists recruited people with anti-clerical language and they opposed the church and broke the Lateran agreements until the fall of Fascism. I don’t agree that ‘they were forced to make a treaty because of the popularity of Catholicism’ is a counter-argument.

  10. < ![CDATA[Moreno R. "The fascist regime was tied very tightly to the catholic church, the church-and-state stranglehold on free thinking was supported by both." Is that why the Fascists tried to dismantle Catholic Action in 1931 which led to a stand-off between Mussolini and the Vatican with international pressure backing the Pope? When the Pope stated that Mussolini's laws "unmasked the pagan underpinnings of Fascism" in the 1930's was this a sign of their close ties? The fact remains - Fascists recruited people with anti-clerical language and they opposed the church and broke the Lateran agreements until the fall of Fascism. I don't agree that 'they were forced to make a treaty because of the popularity of Catholicism' is a counter-argument.]]>

  11. Moreno R. That why I mentioned syndicates when I spoke of Fascism. Don’t pretend the strikes of 1920 didn’t include political parties – the Marxists unionists versus the Syndicalists and Anarchists – the violence was between various groups advocating different notions of “proper” trade and labor unions. Syndicalism was the core of Fascist labor ideology and to say it is ‘anti-union’ is like saying the same about the Wobblies.

  12. < ![CDATA[Moreno R. That why I mentioned syndicates when I spoke of Fascism. Don't pretend the strikes of 1920 didn't include political parties - the Marxists unionists versus the Syndicalists and Anarchists - the violence was between various groups advocating different notions of "proper" trade and labor unions. Syndicalism was the core of Fascist labor ideology and to say it is 'anti-union' is like saying the same about the Wobblies.]]>

  13. LOL!
    I won’t ask the obvious question.
    2 broad reasons and a 3rd particular reason
    1)
    Fascism sucks. You don’t have to give it attributes it didn’t have for that to be true.
    National Socialism sucks. You don’t have to give it attributes it doesn’t have for that to be true.
    2)
    Saying things that aren’t true is wrong.
    3)
    If someone who doesn’t know any better were to read that comic and assume it is true they would have a very poor idea of what National Socialism and Italian Fascism were actually like and might make errors, even serious errors, because they were misinformed.

  14. < ![CDATA[LOL! I won't ask the obvious question. 2 broad reasons and a 3rd particular reason 1) Fascism sucks. You don't have to give it attributes it didn't have for that to be true. National Socialism sucks. You don't have to give it attributes it doesn't have for that to be true. 2) Saying things that aren't true is wrong. 3) If someone who doesn't know any better were to read that comic and assume it is true they would have a very poor idea of what National Socialism and Italian Fascism were actually like and might make errors, even serious errors, because they were misinformed.]]>

  15. Rick Stump I still have the books used by my grandfather in elementary school. Good luck finding anything against the Church there. The Catholic church is defined (again: this was taught at school) as the one true church, and Mussolini was the Duce because it was God’s will.
    Honestly, most Italian people would laugh hearing someone saying that the Mussolini regime was against the Church and pro-unions. Before Mussolini the relationship between the italian state and the catholic church was almost non-existent, and very hostile. All that changed with Mussolini, “the man God gave to Italy” as he was called, made the Catholic Church the Only One True State Religion (and, by the way, talking against the catholic church became a crime)
    You can still find some attrition between them, true. They were two powers sharing the same nations, some “this is mine!” “No, mine!” altercation happen even in the most united band of bank robbers.

  16. < ![CDATA[Rick Stump I still have the books used by my grandfather in elementary school. Good luck finding anything against the Church there. The Catholic church is defined (again: this was taught at school) as the one true church, and Mussolini was the Duce because it was God's will. Honestly, most Italian people would laugh hearing someone saying that the Mussolini regime was against the Church and pro-unions. Before Mussolini the relationship between the italian state and the catholic church was almost non-existent, and very hostile. All that changed with Mussolini, "the man God gave to Italy" as he was called, made the Catholic Church the Only One True State Religion (and, by the way, talking against the catholic church became a crime) You can still find some attrition between them, true. They were two powers sharing the same nations, some "this is mine!" "No, mine!" altercation happen even in the most united band of bank robbers.]]>

  17. “…most Italian people would laugh hearing someone saying that the Mussolini regime was against the Church and pro-unions. …”
    And? Incredulity is not an argument.
    Most people think everyone in Medieval times thought the world was flat.
    They didn’t.
    Unions in Italy before Fascism were as much aligned with political parties as with factories or professions. The Fascists did outlaw non-Fascist unions, but they made membership in a union compulsory. So every industry had a union and every worker had to be IN a union. Worker’s unions had collective bargaining power, etc. and were, yes, unions.

  18. < ![CDATA["...most Italian people would laugh hearing someone saying that the Mussolini regime was against the Church and pro-unions. ..." And? Incredulity is not an argument. Most people think everyone in Medieval times thought the world was flat. They didn't. Unions in Italy before Fascism were as much aligned with political parties as with factories or professions. The Fascists did outlaw non-Fascist unions, but they made membership in a union compulsory. So every industry had a union and every worker had to be IN a union. Worker’s unions had collective bargaining power, etc. and were, yes, unions.]]>

  19. “they made membership in a union compulsory”
    This is a joke. They made membership IN THE ONLY ALLOWED UNION compulsory. A union that never, ever, went on strike.

    But, OK, does this mean that if I closed down every newspaper apart from one I own, and make buying that single newspaper compulsory for everybody, I am a champion of the Freedom of the Press?

    By your line of though, North Corea is the most free country in the world.

  20. < ![CDATA[“they made membership in a union compulsory”
    This is a joke. They made membership IN THE ONLY ALLOWED UNION compulsory. A union that never, ever, went on strike.
    But, OK, does this mean that if I closed down every newspaper apart from one I own, and make buying that single newspaper compulsory for everybody, I am a champion of the Freedom of the Press?
    By your line of though, North Corea is the most free country in the world.]]>

  21. Way to move the goalposts, Moreno.
    Did I say Italian Fascism is good? No, I specifically said it is bad! Were their unions good? No, they were bad.
    And they were mandatory.
    They outlawed the Communist, Socialist, and Catholic unions to make their unions the only ones, made them universal, and made them mandatory.
    I agree – this was bad.
    BUT! here’s the thing.
    If I were to say, as someone did, ‘fascists were anti-union’ that would be incorrect. After all, with that simplistic, erroneous statement someone could look and say ‘Well, this German government was very much in support of unions, and workers’ rights, and collective bargaining – they couldn’t have been Fascist!’ and
    ‘this Italian government had mandatory union membership, and the unions had collective bargaining rights, and could demand safety concerns be addressed, and could prevent workers from being fired – they couldn’t have been Fascist!’
    They’d be wrong, of course. But they would be in agreement with the cartoon.
    Right?
    Right!
    “The Chancellor of Germany fought to make religious schools illegal, had prominent bishops, ministers, and rabbis assassinated, and stated his goal was to eradicate religion! NO WAY he could be fascists!’
    Wrong – but in agreement with the cartoon.
    etc.
    I am in no way defending Fascism. Fascism was evil.
    I just think telling the truth about it is superior to lying about it.

  22. < ![CDATA[Way to move the goalposts, Moreno. Did I say Italian Fascism is good? No, I specifically said it is bad! Were their unions good? No, they were bad. And they were mandatory. They outlawed the Communist, Socialist, and Catholic unions to make their unions the only ones, made them universal, and made them mandatory. I agree - this was bad. BUT! here's the thing. If I were to say, as someone did, 'fascists were anti-union' that would be incorrect. After all, with that simplistic, erroneous statement someone could look and say 'Well, this German government was very much in support of unions, and workers' rights, and collective bargaining - they couldn't have been Fascist!' and 'this Italian government had mandatory union membership, and the unions had collective bargaining rights, and could demand safety concerns be addressed, and could prevent workers from being fired - they couldn't have been Fascist!' They'd be wrong, of course. But they would be in agreement with the cartoon. Right? Right! "The Chancellor of Germany fought to make religious schools illegal, had prominent bishops, ministers, and rabbis assassinated, and stated his goal was to eradicate religion! NO WAY he could be fascists!' Wrong - but in agreement with the cartoon. etc. I am in no way defending Fascism. Fascism was evil. I just think telling the truth about it is superior to lying about it.]]>