All of that is to say that Captain America won’t stay Hydra. There is literally no chance. If DC Comics walked back Green Lantern Hal Jordan murdering the entire Green Lantern Corps it’s fucking child’s play to walk back Steve Rogers saying ‘Hail Hydra’ (and even kicking a D list superhero out of a plane). In fact I would say that the main premise of this story is to see how they get out of it, just as it was when Superman or Cap himself died in the past. The initial event/reveal isn’t the story – it’s dealing with it that’s the story. Every single time. This is how serialized superhero fiction works.

This seems the most sensible take I’ve read today.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/05/25/guys-captain-america-is-going-to-be-okay

32 thoughts on “All of that is to say that Captain America won’t stay Hydra. There is literally no chance. If DC Comics walked back…

  1. < ![CDATA[The problem with doing shit like this is no one ever wants to let them stick. It's super cheap to use the emotional whallop of the change knowing you'll just undo it.]]>

  2. So, how many of you guys are Jewish? Because a lot of the Jewish comic fans I know are a bit upset at the disrespect to Cap’s creators that this represents.

    For my own part, it sabotaged everything Cap has ever done, including, in particular, the Civil War arc. That one looks rather different from the Cap was always Hydra perspective.

  3. < ![CDATA[So, how many of you guys are Jewish? Because a lot of the Jewish comic fans I know are a bit upset at the disrespect to Cap's creators that this represents. For my own part, it sabotaged everything Cap has ever done, including, in particular, the Civil War arc. That one looks rather different from the Cap was always Hydra perspective.]]>

  4. < ![CDATA[I'm old enough to remember: "The only people who stay dead in comics are Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben," ... These days is just Uncle Ben... This too shall pass...]]>

  5. Daniel Swensen and if had just been the future they changed, that would be one thing. Unless they totally retcon this, it taints the entire run. Even if they do, it’s still going to stick in people’s minds. This is not going to be easily fixed.

  6. < ![CDATA[Daniel Swensen and if had just been the future they changed, that would be one thing. Unless they totally retcon this, it taints the entire run. Even if they do, it's still going to stick in people's minds. This is not going to be easily fixed.]]>

  7. Gert Sønderby is right. The retroactivity of the thing is what’s really different. I joke about it, but these days, Cap was was really all about the basic decency and goodness of America. There’s tons of good, decent heroes out there, sure. But this guy’s NAMED for the country. He stands for more than just Steve Rogers.
    Prime example that comes to mind is the rousing speech he gives in Winter Soldier. Government may be corrupt, but people are still basically good and decent. Now… Not so sure anymore… Hey, maybe this means the next Cap movie will be directed by Zack Snyder! >ducks< . 😛

  8. < ![CDATA[Gert Sønderby is right. The retroactivity of the thing is what's really different. I joke about it, but these days, Cap was was really all about the basic decency and goodness of America. There's tons of good, decent heroes out there, sure. But this guy's NAMED for the country. He stands for more than just Steve Rogers. Prime example that comes to mind is the rousing speech he gives in Winter Soldier. Government may be corrupt, but people are still basically good and decent. Now... Not so sure anymore... Hey, maybe this means the next Cap movie will be directed by Zack Snyder! >ducks< . 😛]]>

  9. All I can say is that this is the Marvel that gave us female Thor, black Cap, Spider-Gwen, Kamala Khan, Northstar’s marriage on a cover, and an all-woman X-team. Ergo, I have faith that this is not some big middle finger to Cap fans and Jews everywhere.

    Honestly, it’s so obvious a ploy (“Cap was with Hydra the whole time!”) that I can’t really believe this is intended to be a permanent change.

  10. < ![CDATA[All I can say is that this is the Marvel that gave us female Thor, black Cap, Spider-Gwen, Kamala Khan, Northstar's marriage on a cover, and an all-woman X-team. Ergo, I have faith that this is not some big middle finger to Cap fans and Jews everywhere. Honestly, it's so obvious a ploy ("Cap was with Hydra the whole time!”) that I can’t really believe this is intended to be a permanent change.]]>

  11. Mark Delsing Marvel has, recently, gotten a few things right. But this is also the Marvel that gave us Gwen Stacy’s fate, and many other examples of terribleness. I am not inclined to trust them further because they have managed a bit of not fucking up.

  12. < ![CDATA[Mark Delsing Marvel has, recently, gotten a few things right. But this is also the Marvel that gave us Gwen Stacy's fate, and many other examples of terribleness. I am not inclined to trust them further because they have managed a bit of not fucking up.]]>

  13. I confess I’m a little troubled by the antisemitism charges getting thrown around. That’s pretty incendiary and it escalates what is fundamentally a not-serious conversation into deeply serious territory.

    There are so many ways to justify this reveal that can make it 100% permanent and true. It’s comics! I barely read them and I can think of several ways it can be true: multiple incompatible factions within Hydra, it’s a parallel universe type thing where Hydra turns out to be the SHIELD equivalent, whatever.

  14. < ![CDATA[I confess I'm a little troubled by the antisemitism charges getting thrown around. That's pretty incendiary and it escalates what is fundamentally a not-serious conversation into deeply serious territory. There are so many ways to justify this reveal that can make it 100% permanent and true. It’s comics! I barely read them and I can think of several ways it can be true: multiple incompatible factions within Hydra, it’s a parallel universe type thing where Hydra turns out to be the SHIELD equivalent, whatever.]]>

  15. heh, remember when Cap had the super soldier serum removed from his body because war on drugs? Or when he got shoved into some other dimension for the better part of 2015(IIRC?) or how about USAgent? 🙂 I love Cap. especially Ultimate Cap. He’s gonna be just fine, it won’t be the first time he put on the Hydra suit — though I wonder when did they put the drugs back in him?

  16. < ![CDATA[heh, remember when Cap had the super soldier serum removed from his body because war on drugs? Or when he got shoved into some other dimension for the better part of 2015(IIRC?) or how about USAgent? 🙂 I love Cap. especially Ultimate Cap. He’s gonna be just fine, it won’t be the first time he put on the Hydra suit — though I wonder when did they put the drugs back in him?]]>

  17. Mark Delsing That’s my point. Marvel is still clueless, they’ve just managed to get a few things right, recently, and fucked up some others. This is where they’ve showed us how clueless.

    Paul Beakley So… taking the creation of two Jewish creators, made as an anti-Nazi character, and turning him into a literal Nazi is not anti-semitic? And ‘casting accusations’ is terribad? Let you in on a little secret: Calling someone who does something anti-semitic by that moniker is not worse than actually being anti-semitic. It’s not very hard, really.

  18. < ![CDATA[Mark Delsing That's my point. Marvel is still clueless, they've just managed to get a few things right, recently, and fucked up some others. This is where they've showed us how clueless. Paul Beakley So... taking the creation of two Jewish creators, made as an anti-Nazi character, and turning him into a literal Nazi is not anti-semitic? And ‘casting accusations’ is terribad? Let you in on a little secret: Calling someone who does something anti-semitic by that moniker is not worse than actually being anti-semitic. It’s not very hard, really.]]>

  19. < ![CDATA[Gert Sønderby Please ease down, okay? And, to be a technical jerk, Hydra is a fictional Nazi (among other threats) analogue, not literally Nazis. Granted, small comfort.]]>

  20. In a sense, i am happy to see people freaking out. it means that after all there are still new readers, people who have just started reading Marvel (and DC comics) trusting in what they read and believing it does have a sense. Not only jaded old-timers like me who stopped caring for the last “big event” or “things you never know about that famous character” bullshit.

    By the other hand, is depressing to see that Marvel (and DC) are still there for the short-term cash, without caring about losing readers turning them into jaded people like me tired of the same bullshit.

    The author of the article says that it would be fun to discover “how they will fix this”. Bah! Once upon a time it could even be true, but these times are long gone. There is no need for clever explanation, Marvel entered the reboot/reality change hole long ago. “it was the cosmic cube”, “it was Franklyn Richards”, “it was Scarlet Witch going insane for absolutely no reason” , “it was a time machine”, the “reality” of the marvel universe doesn’t matter to anybody anymore, even to the characters themselves.

  21. < ![CDATA[In a sense, i am happy to see people freaking out. it means that after all there are still new readers, people who have just started reading Marvel (and DC comics) trusting in what they read and believing it does have a sense. Not only jaded old-timers like me who stopped caring for the last "big event" or "things you never know about that famous character" bullshit. By the other hand, is depressing to see that Marvel (and DC) are still there for the short-term cash, without caring about losing readers turning them into jaded people like me tired of the same bullshit. The author of the article says that it would be fun to discover "how they will fix this". Bah! Once upon a time it could even be true, but these times are long gone. There is no need for clever explanation, Marvel entered the reboot/reality change hole long ago. "it was the cosmic cube", "it was Franklyn Richards", "it was Scarlet Witch going insane for absolutely no reason" , "it was a time machine", the "reality" of the marvel universe doesn't matter to anybody anymore, even to the characters themselves.]]>

  22. < ![CDATA[Mark Delsing Ease down. Right, I'll tell my Jewish wife that, and maybe I'll survive if I run fast enough. That's bullshit, and you know it. But you get your way. I'm out.]]>

  23. The article linked above is almost right, when it says that it’s  “clickbait disguised as storytelling”

    It’s clickbait badly disguised as storytelling.

    And it’s practically almost all that Marvel do these days. Even when the stories are readable, they are first and foremost clickbait. Yes, even the female Thor or Captain Ms Marvel. They can be good comics (for a while, until the next crossover or reboot that change them), but it’s a bonus, the important thing, the reason for their existence,  it’s that they are clickbait. A way for a moribund publishing arm kept alive only by shots of multiple-cover-filled “events” can still feign relevance.

    Even the hate is counted, calculated and it fuel the clickbait machine. The only response that could stop them is a general yawn, and a collective “who cares”.
    They are counting on your outrage. Their sales depend on it.

  24. < ![CDATA[The article linked above is almost right, when it says that it’s  “clickbait disguised as storytelling”
    It’s clickbait badly disguised as storytelling.
    And it’s practically almost all that Marvel do these days. Even when the stories are readable, they are first and foremost clickbait. Yes, even the female Thor or Captain Ms Marvel. They can be good comics (for a while, until the next crossover or reboot that change them), but it’s a bonus, the important thing, the reason for their existence,  it’s that they are clickbait. A way for a moribund publishing arm kept alive only by shots of multiple-cover-filled “events” can still feign relevance.
    Even the hate is counted, calculated and it fuel the clickbait machine. The only response that could stop them is a general yawn, and a collective “who cares”.
    They are counting on your outrage. Their sales depend on it.]]>

  25. < ![CDATA[Yeah it may be more accurate to say this is trolling as storytelling. Doesn't mean trolling can't make good stories, but it's a marketing tactic that irritates me.]]>

  26. I think what we have here is a perfect storm: a long-lived, beloved character whose essence is very front-of-mind in the media-sphere due to the wild success of the MCU, plus typical comic book shenanigans, plus a real-world atrocity and the attendant trickiness in addressing it in art.

    I’m trying to think of similar situations recently. In the New 52, DC basically retconned that Amazons are rapists, which seems crazy fucked-up given Wonder Woman’s history and her status as a feminist icon. But, no big movie franchise to go with it, so no waves of outrage.

    Superman and Batman as killers in the Snyderverse maybe come close, but even then we’re talking about a general issue (the morality of killing) and not a specific, real-world atrocity.

  27. < ![CDATA[I think what we have here is a perfect storm: a long-lived, beloved character whose essence is very front-of-mind in the media-sphere due to the wild success of the MCU, plus typical comic book shenanigans, plus a real-world atrocity and the attendant trickiness in addressing it in art. I'm trying to think of similar situations recently. In the New 52, DC basically retconned that Amazons are rapists, which seems crazy fucked-up given Wonder Woman's history and her status as a feminist icon. But, no big movie franchise to go with it, so no waves of outrage. Superman and Batman as killers in the Snyderverse maybe come close, but even then we're talking about a general issue (the morality of killing) and not a specific, real-world atrocity.]]>

  28. Talking about making money turning global tragedies into cheap shock-value characters… I was always disturbed by the continuing existence of the Red Skull in the Marvel Universe. At the time (before the movies) The Skull was not “hydra”, he was a NAZIST, who was given the costume literally by Adolf Hitler to “spread fear” among the “lesser races”: i still remember the uneasiness I felt in the 70s reading the “super-villain team-up” issues where the Skull and the Hate Monger build their little “nazist paradise island”

    They had the right idea with Zemo. Kill him. Kill him as soon as possible, and pass the mask and costume to a son who can be nazi as much as he wants, but he wasn’t THERE.
    From the time they did the story with The Skull returning from his “sleep” into the modern world, I thought that ending the story without him dying was a mistake. Even if I did know even at the time that “death” is a relative thing in the MU and the he could simply be brought back, the story HAD to end with him dead. Not with him free to go around plotting, or even (during the Gruenwald run) being even shown some character sympathy

    (by the other hand Gruenwald had Magneto do what it was incredible nobody has done before: as soon as he did know that the Skull was really the WWII monster and not a descendant or impostor, he did drop his fight with the superheroes and began to search for the Skull to kill him, in the most sadistic way possible. It’s incredible that in the MU there are not hundreds of super-powered people. heroes or villains, that didn’t try to do the same thing…)

    Probably is different for americans: in the 70s in Italy there were still a lot of nazi mass-murderers wanted by the italian police for murdering the population of entire villages that were living free in south america or even in Germany (that fought extradition for a lot of them), I didn’t want to see another one free on the pages of my comics.

  29. < ![CDATA[Talking about making money turning global tragedies into cheap shock-value characters... I was always disturbed by the continuing existence of the Red Skull in the Marvel Universe. At the time (before the movies) The Skull was not "hydra", he was a NAZIST, who was given the costume literally by Adolf Hitler to "spread fear" among the "lesser races": i still remember the uneasiness I felt in the 70s reading the "super-villain team-up" issues where the Skull and the Hate Monger build their little "nazist paradise island" They had the right idea with Zemo. Kill him. Kill him as soon as possible, and pass the mask and costume to a son who can be nazi as much as he wants, but he wasn't THERE. From the time they did the story with The Skull returning from his "sleep" into the modern world, I thought that ending the story without him dying was a mistake. Even if I did know even at the time that "death" is a relative thing in the MU and the he could simply be brought back, the story HAD to end with him dead. Not with him free to go around plotting, or even (during the Gruenwald run) being even shown some character sympathy (by the other hand Gruenwald had Magneto do what it was incredible nobody has done before: as soon as he did know that the Skull was really the WWII monster and not a descendant or impostor, he did drop his fight with the superheroes and began to search for the Skull to kill him, in the most sadistic way possible. It's incredible that in the MU there are not hundreds of super-powered people. heroes or villains, that didn't try to do the same thing...) Probably is different for americans: in the 70s in Italy there were still a lot of nazi mass-murderers wanted by the italian police for murdering the population of entire villages that were living free in south america or even in Germany (that fought extradition for a lot of them), I didn't want to see another one free on the pages of my comics.]]>